tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post2314365042324715472..comments2023-12-28T21:22:10.935-07:00Comments on Jill Outside: The fallacy of water resistanceJill Homerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02983065990450931943noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-44791931008492505932009-09-03T19:06:49.989-06:002009-09-03T19:06:49.989-06:00They same the same thing in Poland: You're not...They same the same thing in Poland: You're not made of sugar. <br /><br />Suck it up!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-6770403566905129882008-09-01T17:30:00.000-06:002008-09-01T17:30:00.000-06:00"BUT here is the problem, when dirt or oil gets on...<I>"BUT here is the problem, when dirt or oil gets on the jacket, that dirt or oil becomes a conduit for moisture to run through the material anyway."</I><BR/><BR/>I suggest you trying washing it. It won't be as good as new but it may improve lots. When either our gortex (Bernoulli jackets from Mountain Equipment coop, no longer available) or our water resistant jackets (Microft, same source and still available) stop working, I wash them and dry them "hot" and they start working again. You should check the washing directions but if it says dry them "hot" don't skip this step.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17602259527731956014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-21935595072291099292008-08-30T23:16:00.000-06:002008-08-30T23:16:00.000-06:00I live in the pacific Northwest -- it cannot compa...I live in the pacific Northwest -- it cannot compare, rain-wise, to Alaska, but the weather here does try.<BR/><BR/>I have tried pretty much everything (including just suffering under a truly waterproof shell). The only jacket that I found to work on my long tours -- "long" in the sense of multi-day, with relentless rain bugging me -- is the Showers Pass Elite 2.0. They have cheaper ones (the 2.0 was $220), but this one is the only one not giving the marketing hype the lie.<BR/><BR/>Another commenter already noted the strategic vents and zippers, including two underarm zippers; I'll just add that the jacket has provision for attaching an (optional) hood from the same material.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and here is a candidate for the Hall Of Shame: Under Armour makes a Goretex running jacket -- and then embroiders the UA logo onto it. Why not just sew a funnel through the fabric?<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/>Felix.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-66404178412005926222008-08-28T22:17:00.000-06:002008-08-28T22:17:00.000-06:00I'm going to echo Toni, David, Anon and others and...I'm going to echo Toni, David, Anon and others and re-recommend the Showers Pass. It does use the eVent fabric that Gore is trying to keep from everyone and so far mine has made it through one Portland winter. My longest day was 5 hours of bike errands all over town and I was dry when I got home. <BR/><BR/>However, I know how it is when you've already spent so much money on crap that doesn't work. That's why I keep lobbying Showers Pass to send you a free Elite jacket. I think if it worked for you, it could mean some good publicity and street cred for them.Krondahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05403460895674399460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-49293798181415093022008-08-28T19:12:00.000-06:002008-08-28T19:12:00.000-06:00There's plenty of waterproof jackets that hold up ...There's plenty of waterproof jackets that hold up to "real rain". It's pretty naive of you to think that because you've used a few products that there are no jackets out there that work. I think there are even other places on earth that get as much rain or maybe more than se Alaska.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-79038971331547371852008-08-28T16:52:00.000-06:002008-08-28T16:52:00.000-06:00Hi Jill - someone may have already mentioned it bu...Hi Jill - someone may have already mentioned it but I didn't want to read all 27 entries to find out so here goes: there is a new waterproof/breathable called eVent that is supposed to smoke the competition, including gore. I've heard from early adopters that you can actually see steam rising from people who are wearing it while engaging in rigorous activity in the rain. REI is changing all their W/B items to eVent for '09. Just a thought.Dr. Loganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16542493767359114575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-42671327501456447972008-08-28T00:19:00.000-06:002008-08-28T00:19:00.000-06:00b ...Thank you for repsonding. Very informative. I...b ...<BR/><BR/>Thank you for repsonding. Very informative. I never looked into the science of water-resistant jackets before. Your post proves I would have benefited from doing some more research before trying different jackets.<BR/><BR/>I wasn't trying to knock the Pearl Izumi jacket. I received it as a prize in a race, and didn't even know the name of the jacket until I looked it up yesterday. When I read the description, yes, that jacket does exactly what it was advertised to do. It doesn't bill itself as a heavy-duty rain jacket. But during the first month I used it, it worked really well even in heavy storms. It's gotten progressivly worse in a few short weeks, which has been my experience with every polyester and nylon-based jacket that I've owned.<BR/><BR/>I have had people recommend eVent before, but have been reluctant to spend any more money on rain jackets when I already found something that works for me (PVC). Sweat has never been much of a problem for me, especially in the temperatures I generally ride in, so with PVC I can opt for "damp" instead of "wet," and a it's a super-cheap product that I won't mourn when I destroy it (I have ripped a couple jackets in falls) But maybe I should take the eVent leap. I believe those Showers Pass jackets use it.Jill Homerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02983065990450931943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-60222180175249163152008-08-27T23:09:00.000-06:002008-08-27T23:09:00.000-06:00ok, some things to point out:Your Pearl Izumi jack...ok, some things to point out:<BR/><BR/>Your Pearl Izumi jacket is water resistant, not waterproof. so the first picture shows its Durable water repellent (DWR) finish doing it's job, and beading up water. The second photo shows that once the DWR can't keep up, it soaks in. and then you get wet. no great surprise.<BR/><BR/>Gore-tex (or Elements, Hyvent, or Precip, to name a few) are in fact a mesh with tiny holes. these holes are small enough that water molecules can't move through, but big enough that water vapor can. this is the basic principal behind waterproof/breathable, as someone mentioned before. <BR/><BR/>BUT here is the problem, when dirt or oil gets on the jacket, that dirt or oil becomes a conduit for moisture to run through the material anyway. So what do they do? They add a Poly Urethane (PU) coating to the back of the gore-tex. the down side of this is it dramatically decreases the very breathability we are after. And since it destroyed the breathability, they had to do something to increase breathability. That's why jackets have Pit zips. In my experience, if you want to know how breathable a jacket is, look at how big the pit zips are! And if the pockets are vented, it really needs help. <BR/><BR/>Waterproof is easy. But breathable is hard. PVC (as several people mentioned) is waterproof, and in really wet environments (the gortons fisherman comes to mind) PVC, or rubber is the way to go. <BR/><BR/>I'm going to add a little bit more, because A) this is what I do for a living, and can talk about it WAY too much, and B) I have had a couple of whiskeys. <BR/><BR/>So, some waterproof breathable (WPB) jackets have a mesh, or ventilated fabric on the inside. you may think this is to add insulation, but it's to add space. Space between you, and the membrane. Space to allow water, heated by your body, to vaporize, so it can move out through the membrane, these jackets are usually more breathable, and breathable usually means drier. <BR/><BR/>Most of the jackets that don't have this liner on the inside still try and make the space, and they do it with three dimensional printing. Marmot Precip uses microscopic 3d dots, REI elements uses 3d lines that look like topo maps. this is to provide space. I know, your saying this guy is crazy, they are just lines, but really, that's what they are supposed to do. <BR/><BR/>There is something new (sort of) though, and it's called eVent. It's not really new, but let me just say Gore-tex has done a GREAT job keeping companies from using it. eVent discovered a process to stay waterproof and breathable without the PU coating. So it is waterproof, AND still breathable. I haven't had a chance to test it, but I should have an opportunity in about a month. I am cautiously optimistic. <BR/><BR/>Here endeth the science lesson. <BR/><BR/>bAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-80314924165034646062008-08-27T22:58:00.000-06:002008-08-27T22:58:00.000-06:00I can't believe Fall came in mid-August! Reading y...I can't believe Fall came in mid-August! Reading your blog is better than the weather forecast ... I know if you're riding (and writing) about riding in the rain, I'll be riding in the wet stuff within 2 days.<BR/><BR/>We get, maybe, 50 days a year that aren't raining here in the Willamette Valley. For cyclists who want to ride through all four seasons, the preferred jacket is the Showers Pass Elite. Seriously, if you show up at a club ride on a saturday morning - 20 of 25 riders will have on the Shower's Pass Elite. God they work great ... when they are new. Like you, I try to avoid washing it, because washing them just accelerates them to their half-life, which is probably about 1 Oregon winter. I agree, that's probably something in the neighborhood of 50 -100 wet rides, or 30 washings.<BR/><BR/>I wrote about my experience with the Showers Pass and you can get it here, if you are interested: http://readytoride.biz/?p=184.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-14826171191334879172008-08-27T19:53:00.000-06:002008-08-27T19:53:00.000-06:00Love your blog, I also have looking for good rain ...Love your blog, I also have looking for good rain gear for riding, water proof the breathe well, my two biggest concerns. may have to look into other bloggers suggestion<BR/><BR/>take it easyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-31941196780869808412008-08-27T18:56:00.000-06:002008-08-27T18:56:00.000-06:00Hi,I completely agree with your evaluation. The su...Hi,<BR/><BR/>I completely agree with your evaluation. The super technical fabrics are nice and all, but will eventually let water through. PVC will not. I have found a jacket that makes a good compromise though - it is PVC, but has great ventilation, packs down small, weighs very little:<BR/>http://www.quechua.com/EN/diosaz-raid-jacket-15949307/<BR/><BR/>unfortunately, only available in Europe as far as I know :)<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/>Grant.inertiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13200118219445915731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-43638488108743609492008-08-27T17:25:00.000-06:002008-08-27T17:25:00.000-06:00Subtle Geoff, veeerrrrrryyyyyy subtle :)Subtle Geoff, veeerrrrrryyyyyy subtle :)Alaskan Dave Down Underhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13726448407614912997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-85587070569627031342008-08-27T15:28:00.000-06:002008-08-27T15:28:00.000-06:00I'm telling you Jill... get yourself a SHOWERS PAS...I'm telling you Jill... get yourself a SHOWERS PASS DOUBLE CENTURY jacket. The secrets' in the vents - they are what keep me warm and cool depending on my needs (Maine riding). When I feel the slime coming on, I just open one of the seven available vent points. Feel that chill? Zip up! Underneath - it's wool all the way. Check out vintage velos for some beautiful jerseys. "You will be snugly... just like a lamby, plus wool doesn't stink, or ever feel clammy!" I love your blog!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-70058524417071154382008-08-27T14:43:00.000-06:002008-08-27T14:43:00.000-06:00I thought the recommendation was PVC? Clump, clump...I thought the recommendation was PVC? Clump, clump, squish, squish.Conchscooterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08016331487463993200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-3826737690674900162008-08-27T14:19:00.000-06:002008-08-27T14:19:00.000-06:00like sunny southern California!like sunny southern California!Juanchohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01283672346601878803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-89963247085133026552008-08-27T11:12:00.000-06:002008-08-27T11:12:00.000-06:00you could just move somewhere that doesn't rain ev...you could just move somewhere that doesn't rain everyday :)Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-61800291590989457782008-08-27T11:10:00.000-06:002008-08-27T11:10:00.000-06:00For me the big epiphany was to realize that, even ...For me the big epiphany was to realize that, even if the "breathable and waterproof" fabric worked every bit as well as its ad copy says, water vapor will not pass through liquid water. This means that once the outside of the garment is wet, there will be no "breathing" going on, and the shell has become effectively impermeable (you hope). So, yes, the effective coping strategy is to get wet. As they say in Denmark: You're not made of sugar. ValAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-23213095298144784602008-08-27T11:04:00.000-06:002008-08-27T11:04:00.000-06:00I think this is something like what rambler is tal...I think this is something like what rambler is talking about...<BR/><BR/>http://www.penguinsportwash.com/waterguard.html<BR/><BR/>I use the regular sports wash on my gym stuff. Seems to do the job, but can't attest for the waterproofing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-22726545049435831082008-08-27T10:51:00.000-06:002008-08-27T10:51:00.000-06:00I wish somebody would have told me this 5 expensiv...I wish somebody would have told me this 5 expensive rain jackets ago.<BR/>But this clears up a major pique for me. I just couldn't figure out why people walk around here with polar fleeces in the pouring rain.<BR/>Cynthia in the ValleyDanCyn On The Islandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09348079698180646434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-28318426244109576222008-08-27T10:50:00.000-06:002008-08-27T10:50:00.000-06:00Jill,I've given up on name brand rain gear (except...Jill,<BR/>I've given up on name brand rain gear (except for Helly Hansen PVC). It just rains too much here. I am on my third jacket this year. Once they reach the saturation point, none of mine have recovered for any rain heavier than mist. <BR/>For some great rants on rain gear and outlandish manufacturer's claims, go to Jim Wigatowski (sp?) web page, wiggys.com He has some truly excellent gear, most of which has been field tested, over and over, in Alaska.<BR/>Ride safe,<BR/>Hunter<BR/>KetchikanHunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15665859950228150235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-9520241143967797912008-08-27T09:55:00.000-06:002008-08-27T09:55:00.000-06:00Try wetsuit under a shell. The resistance adds to ...Try wetsuit under a shell. The resistance adds to the work out too.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02276596666223591698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-5922782315242635602008-08-27T09:01:00.000-06:002008-08-27T09:01:00.000-06:00I bought a pearl izumi goretex jacket a few years ...I bought a pearl izumi goretex jacket a few years ago, and the thing rocks. It was super expensive though. I think it retailed for $300, and I was lucky to get it on sale for $100. <BR/><BR/>The thing definitely does not breathe at all though. I only use it when it's super cold and snowy out, or when it's pouring rain. <BR/><BR/>PS. Don't feel bad about not washing your jacket. I've had mine for 4 years and can count on one hand how much I've washed it :-)Danielle Mustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11780175857761747942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-79830734199498699832008-08-27T09:00:00.000-06:002008-08-27T09:00:00.000-06:00Have you tried wearing wool? It can get wet, and ...Have you tried wearing wool? It can get wet, and still keep you warm. Companies like Ibex make great wool gear.CPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01578523093279826458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-7317773275549187172008-08-27T07:47:00.000-06:002008-08-27T07:47:00.000-06:00I think your conclusion is best, that impermeable ...I think your conclusion is best, that impermeable fabric, such as true rain gear like the fisherman wear will keep the rain out and body warm. If you look at pro cycling they all put on non- breathable rain jackets when it gets wet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18615538.post-71853871330528789742008-08-27T07:29:00.000-06:002008-08-27T07:29:00.000-06:00Hi from Italy, I use Briko , look on briko.com pag...Hi from Italy, I use Briko , look on briko.com page.<BR/>CiaoStefaniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687488556650427536noreply@blogger.com